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Post by tbass on Jul 28, 2009 14:06:33 GMT -4
Any of you heard of a company called either habitat regeneration specialists or perhaps forest regeneration specialists? They were on the Julian Pike in Black Moshannon State Park doing work about a week ago. Doug and I had a debate about loggers coming back and thinning and/or clearing out some of the "undesirable" growth. Doug asked who would pay for it, I guess we got our answer; tax payers. I took a picture of the semi that hauled the skidder or dozer. I'll post a pic of it this evening, which will get us the name as well. From what I can initially tell, they put a chemical of some sort in the woods or on something. The one thing that got my attention quickly was how they drove over all of the maples knocking them down leaving mainly oak, hickory, and I think witch hazel. Wonder how much that cost considering the gypsy moths killed off about 50% of the oaks in the area.
Hopefully tomorrow since I won't be car pooling, I can take some pics of what they did. I wanted to stop and ask at the rangers station but the moron they have sat at the desk lately is reluctant to help unless you ask very specifically the things you need including asking him to "ask someone in the back". Seems every time they get a good one in there, they ship him or her elsewhere.
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Post by tbass on Jul 28, 2009 14:22:39 GMT -4
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Post by Twowithone on Jul 28, 2009 15:29:14 GMT -4
DCNR must still have some monies left in their piggy bank for outside help.
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Post by dougell on Jul 28, 2009 16:06:55 GMT -4
DCNR DOES ALOT OF HERBICIDING.Usually the work gets contracted out by companies that come in with a sprayer thats on the front of a skidder.I never remember saying that herbiciding doesn't take place.I'll try and dig up a link from a company that does this type of work.They have a nice website that highlights exactly what they do.
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Post by Twowithone on Jul 28, 2009 17:25:25 GMT -4
doug I think you did say that very thing when it was brought up by me with herbaciding the incloseures on dcnr lands they spray period.
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Post by dougell on Jul 28, 2009 17:31:52 GMT -4
I never said they didn't spray.They spray like crazy but they don't spray every exclosure.the exclosure TBASS took pictures of was not herbicided.You claimed they limed alot of the exclosures and I said they didn't do that.For years when everyone has been claiming DCNR doesn't do anything right,I've been talking about all the things they do like burns,herbiciding, and yes even lime studies,which doesn't do crap.The amount of work,planning and science that goes into every timber sale is mind boggling.These guys are experts and they know what they're doing.
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Post by Twowithone on Jul 28, 2009 17:39:51 GMT -4
doug I know what merlin benner e-mailed me. forget about the lime crap they have been herbaciding also. When you visit the other site think about this when a pic is posted concerning a encloseure there arent to many that show negative results meaning bracken ferns inside and outside the encloseure. doug beleive me when I say merlin e-mailed me and told me what goes on with a encloseure.
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Post by dougell on Jul 28, 2009 17:55:34 GMT -4
The certainly do herbicide but they don't spray every exclosure.I don't have to look at any other site.I've walked through hundreds of exclosures on state forest land,state game lands and private lands.I've seen the effects of praying,not spraying,burning etc.DCNR's primary goal is to get adequate preferred regeneration.they do whatever is necessary and it's no big secret what they do.You act as if they have this big conspiracy to kill all the deer when all the while,it wasn't the deer causing the lack of regneration.It's many factors,deer being the biggest factor in most cases.They have to control the deer and the invasive species to get the kind of regeneration they're after.
By the way,I've also walked through experimental limed areas and the lime had the biggest effect on the bracken ferns.Can you even tell the difference between a bracken,new york and hay-scented fern?The hay scented ferns and the new york ferns are the real problems.
I've actually personally been involved with erecting and maintaining exclosures.Believe me when i say I know what goes on with them.
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Post by guru on Jul 28, 2009 18:07:51 GMT -4
"You act as if they have this big conspiracy to kill all the deer when all the while,it wasn't the deer causing the lack of regneration.It's many factors,deer being the biggest factor in most cases.They have to control the deer and the invasive species to get the kind of regeneration they're after."
The kind of regeneration theyre after being key here... The kind that promotes EXTREME and UNNATURAL levels of biodiversity to be exact.
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Post by tbass on Jul 28, 2009 18:29:46 GMT -4
DCNR DOES ALOT OF HERBICIDING.Usually the work gets contracted out by companies that come in with a sprayer thats on the front of a skidder.I never remember saying that herbiciding doesn't take place.I'll try and dig up a link from a company that does this type of work.They have a nice website that highlights exactly what they do. I was referring to a post a while back about why they cut and dont come back and thin it out or cut back the maples and you said "who is gonna pay for it". Nothing about herbicide. This post was more in reference to them running over a ton of maples with a skidder or some sort of machinery leaving the oak, hickory, and witch hazel standing. I'm glad they are doing something besides killing the deer.
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Post by dougell on Jul 29, 2009 8:37:24 GMT -4
They always have been doing something besides killing the deer but the deer numbers have to be controlled lower than what most people realize or want.That's why in the limited time we had,I showed you several examples in a small area of what they do to get regeneration.What I was getting at with the pole timber is that it usually isn't profitable to cut it and many times it costs money.The PGC simply doesn't have the money or manpower to to manage all of the gamlands in that capacity.They do an excellent job with what they have to work with,Unfirtunalty,every one of you people want to keep them from getting any more funding.If it's all about money,why would they leave witch hazel standing? The website I was referring to is www.jrforestry.com.
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Post by tbass on Jul 29, 2009 9:24:02 GMT -4
This is on state forest ground though Doug. They can pay these guys to spray stuff and run over maples but they can't thin out an old clear cut to expedite the growth and percentage of desired trees. You can't get the weeds take over your garden and logging is nothing more than gardening. You don't plant more than the soil can handle and you don't over crowd the garden. If the garden gets crowded, you thin it out and your crops grow faster. They do however have a professional logging outfit thinning out sections of the forest a few miles away.
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Post by dougell on Jul 29, 2009 9:29:41 GMT -4
"You act as if they have this big conspiracy to kill all the deer when all the while,it wasn't the deer causing the lack of regneration.It's many factors,deer being the biggest factor in most cases.They have to control the deer and the invasive species to get the kind of regeneration they're after." The kind of regeneration theyre after being key here... The kind that promotes EXTREME and UNNATURAL levels of biodiversity to be exact.On state forests lands,I don't think it's unreasable to expect species to regenerate that should be there if the deer didn't wipe them all out.I also don't consider it unreasonable for there to be other preferred regeneration occuring that benefits wildlife and is also commercially valuable.I wouldn't call that extreme and unnatural leveles of biodoversity.For that not to occur,I would call that extreme and unnatural levels of easy deer hunting.
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Post by dougell on Jul 29, 2009 9:36:14 GMT -4
This is on state forest ground though Doug. They can pay these guys to spray stuff and run over maples but they can't thin out an old clear cut to expedite the growth and percentage of desired trees. You can't get the weeds take over your garden and logging is nothing more than gardening. You don't plant more than the soil can handle and you don't over crowd the garden. If the garden gets crowded, you thin it out and your crops grow faster. They do however have a professional logging outfit thinning out sections of the forest a few miles away. You really need to talk with a professional forester.I'd be more than happy to set that up for you,if you truly are intersted in learning the truth and not just on based smear campaign .In some areas,they can sell certain pole timber for pulpwood and in other areas,they have to wait until the trees are mature enough to harvest.They're also mandated to only harvest a certain amount of acres within a certain amount of of other cuts.Are you also aware that around 50% of the state forests are never going to be cut because they're deignated as wild areas?
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Post by dougell on Jul 29, 2009 9:49:36 GMT -4
This is on state forest ground though Doug. They can pay these guys to spray stuff and run over maples but they can't thin out an old clear cut to expedite the growth and percentage of desired trees. You can't get the weeds take over your garden and logging is nothing more than gardening. You don't plant more than the soil can handle and you don't over crowd the garden. If the garden gets crowded, you thin it out and your crops grow faster. They do however have a professional logging outfit thinning out sections of the forest a few miles away. Do you realize why large areas of the state are being taken over by invasive species?I showed you a prefect example of of an area that started out being managed for oak regeneration and got virtually wiped out by very few deer.Deer are picky eaters.they eat the preferred species first.We had way to many freakin deer for way too long and the deer single handedly altered the composition of the forest.It's a fact.It's indisputable and has been proven.Now,we're faced with the problem of trying to fix that.Fixing that means lowering the deer heard,cutting the timber on a rotaional basis so that we're won't have an even aged stand of timer any more and using treatments such as hebiscides and mechanical means.It's very complicated but they people knoqw what they're doing.Forestry is much more complicated than growing a large garden.It would boggle your mind if you knew how much science went ionto each timber sale.It cracks me up that people on here think they know more than professional foresters.
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