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Post by cmreed on Nov 1, 2011 15:52:30 GMT -4
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Post by dougell on Nov 1, 2011 17:35:07 GMT -4
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Post by beardbuster on Nov 1, 2011 21:50:33 GMT -4
Wow when you click on Dougs post it takes you to the Audobahn society. Doug how much does a tree grow in a yrs time. I think like dont spruces grow 2 ft a yr. Ill have to ask the Christmas tree people how long their trees are in the ground before you can cut them. Again tonite while in my treestand with binocs up to the eyes watching deer eat the leaves off the trees again. This is not harming that tree and if the deer nips the end of the branch its like being pruned like professional arborators do.
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Post by cmreed on Nov 2, 2011 8:39:11 GMT -4
I posted this for the info and I thought it to be very informative. Yes Doug I do understand what your saying as well as beardbuster but this is why I didn't post anything that is from pa because they just want you to believe what they want, not that they are wrong but people are just sick and tired of the jiber jaber that PA has to offer on many issues and no longer have trust.
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Post by dougell on Nov 2, 2011 11:08:51 GMT -4
Wow when you click on Dougs post it takes you to the Audobahn society. Doug how much does a tree grow in a yrs time. I think like dont spruces grow 2 ft a yr. Ill have to ask the Christmas tree people how long their trees are in the ground before you can cut them. Again tonite while in my treestand with binocs up to the eyes watching deer eat the leaves off the trees again. This is not harming that tree and if the deer nips the end of the branch its like being pruned like professional arborators do. I can't believe after all this time,you don't get it.The deer aren't damaging the trees by eating leaves.They damage young saplings and stump sprouts by browsing the ends of the branches off.That kills the sapling and they never have a chance to grow.To create habitat on SGL's they often have to fence off timber sales just long enough for the saplings to get a head start and make it past the deer at critical stages of development.Then the fences come down,allowing the habitat to regenerate with species that are beneficial to wildlife. This time of year,the leaves fall off the trees in case you haven't noriced that.Once that happens and we get some snow,the deer's diet is forced to scitch to browse,it you don't have suitable browse for about 4 months,you can't carry alot of deer without excess damage to the habitat.Again,why do you think the have to fence the deer out in areas with poor habitat or too mnay deer?Also,why don't you post a study that's been done which shows deer do not impact the habitat.
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Post by beardbuster on Nov 2, 2011 12:08:20 GMT -4
Doug I dont know what to tell you since I live and hunt in a SRA unit and I ain't seeing no skinny deer and like Ive told you numerous times when the does give birth and its twins like Ive been seeing for yrs in my unit its telling me my habitat is doing fine. Now if you dont believe me you better go on the other site and look up ol GC. D. Bowdens post on the results of road killed does that they did studies on. And your saying a cut Im talking about my woods Im in right now no cuts plain ol woods. And when your talking about cuts on gamelands are they replanting trees and are they using 4' tubing around it. Doud the habitat is fine down in Greene Co. also irregardless of what GTF is stating.
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Post by dougell on Nov 2, 2011 18:12:02 GMT -4
2B does not average 2 fawns per adult doe.
There should be a mid level understory in a mature forest,it doesn't have to be a clearcut.
No,they don't replant trees on SGL's.THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO REGNERATE ON THEIR OWN.Why would they put 4 foot tubing around every tree and how could that possibly be feasible?
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Post by beardbuster on Nov 2, 2011 18:55:45 GMT -4
Doug thats what were seeing. And who did this latest study on fawn recruitment for 2-B this should be good was itD.Bowden. When was it done. The tubing came from a bunch of boyscouts yrs ago up on that mountain. They knew when they planted the tree it would get nipped by the deer and other prey ie turkeys so they put the tubing around it you know what Im talking about. Doug isnt a acorn supposed to grow into a tree well even on your site lots of people probaly the last 2 yrs saying theyve been walking on acorns that tells me the herd was shot to crap and there so much duff on the forest floor a acorn cant grow into a tree because of all the duff on the forest floor.
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Post by dougell on Nov 4, 2011 11:28:46 GMT -4
Two years ago was the last I could find data concerning road killed data.They checked 162 adult doe in 2B and the embryo count was 1.67 per adult doe.That's the conception rate,not the fawn recruitment rate.Not all fawns make it to the fall hunting season not every doe has two fawns tagging along.The WCO in that wmu most likely compliled the data.
Please tell me how you can put tubing of the thousands of seedlings per acre in every clearcut?By the way,turkeys don't nip at trees.
Acorns are supposed to grow into trees but not all acorns are able to.Deer,turkeys,squirrels bear and insects all contribute to acorn consumption.A few years a buddy of mine that constantly complains about the lack of deer told me about all the acorns laying on the ground,"going to waste".We took a walk to the areas he was talking about and the acorns were all hollow.They weren't going to grow into anything and nothing was going to eat them.
Explain to me how the acorns grow into saplings on all that duff when they fence the deer out.
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Post by guru on Nov 4, 2011 18:06:33 GMT -4
The exclosures show NOTHING other than a completely unnatural situation. One where the effects of shading/invasives/acid soils/ and etc are not compounded by deer as well.
The first exclosures for the purpose of evaluating deer impact were put into place by a ecoextremist nutjob for the purpose of demonizing the big brown pestilence with hooves. Guy was so far out there he was fired from the game commission! lol.
I understand that is not the main purpose of the exclosures today, but they ARE used in evaluations in that manner, as your last statement attests.
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Post by beardbuster on Nov 4, 2011 20:45:40 GMT -4
Doug the acorn cant grow on all the duff thats the point i.e. are they doing controlled burns now I beleive they are you should have regeneration out the kazoo.Doug that area I told you about was done by the boyscouts where they got the tubing I dont know but it was there saw it myself. Doug turkeys have been known to nip the ends off of young saplings just like they eat the farmers winter wheat when it pops out of the ground yeah they eat that also doug not just insects like everyone is led to beleive. Who ever thought they would eat cow dung just to get at some seeds the cow ate. Doug ask GTF how multiflora rose got started down in Greene Co. especially the part she visits every yr.So explain the empty acorn shells every acorn I ever walked on had fruit in it and different boards had hunters saying this acorns not touched by the deer you know why the deer were shot to crap and beyond thats why you had all the acorns laying around. You said it yourself find the food source and youll find the deer well guess what hunters found the gold and there was no deer explain that one habitat warrior.
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Post by dougell on Nov 7, 2011 11:02:36 GMT -4
The exclosures show NOTHING other than a completely unnatural situation. One where the effects of shading/invasives/acid soils/ and etc are not compounded by deer as well. The first exclosures for the purpose of evaluating deer impact were put into place by a ecoextremist nutjob for the purpose of demonizing the big brown pestilence with hooves. Guy was so far out there he was fired from the game commission! lol. I understand that is not the main purpose of the exclosures today, but they ARE used in evaluations in that manner, as your last statement attests. Most exclosures have deer in them at one time or another.What they show beyond any doubt is that if you remove one variable(deer)and you get acceptable regeneration,then the problem is the deer.
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Post by beardbuster on Nov 7, 2011 22:23:00 GMT -4
How are these excloseures doing these days haven't heard to much about them like back a couple yrs ago.
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Post by dougell on Nov 8, 2011 12:13:23 GMT -4
In the district where I live,DCNR was able to finally stop fencing most of the timber sales about 2 years ago because they started seeing acceptable regeneration.In fact,they took 4 out their 5 units out of dmap this past year.
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Post by guru on Nov 8, 2011 15:59:21 GMT -4
"Most exclosures have deer in them at one time or another." The exclosures sole purpose is to exclude deer. If they do not accomplish that goal, then those doing the analysis of deer impact should just add that to the list as one more of their failings. Not interested in if one or two may or may not have been in for unspecified periods of time etc. The exclosures are not a natural condition period. "What they show beyond any doubt is that if you remove one variable(deer)and you get acceptable regeneration,then the problem is the deer." No..Its deer PLUS the known factual other contributors. You do not know at all what extent the other factors contribute unless you were to have a normal deer population within an enclosure, then removed the other factors other than deer, to see if the same result were obtained. But no, its more convenient for the focus to be put on the deer period. It has been acknowledged by virtually everyone that there a many factors contributing to lack of regeneration. Not only that but the level of regen. that there should be in the first place, and species composition is nothing more than a judgement call at best. I acknowledge deer as "A" factor. Not "THEE" factor. There is absolutely no existing scientific evidence to suggest otherwise currently other than some flawed logic and self serving opinions from some highly antideer folks at dcnr, and by default then, pgc.
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