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Post by mrlongbeard on Jul 17, 2008 19:20:20 GMT -4
they cut down all the tree's , drip oil all over the ground, tear up the ground so we have lot's of erosion. does that answer your question
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Post by jakebird on Jul 17, 2008 22:08:43 GMT -4
The point is we don't need liming and fertilizer to double the carrying capacity ,because the herd in 2G is being managed at 25-30% of the max. CC. We need harvests that don't equal or exceed recruit.Liming and fertilizer would accelerate the growth rate of seedlings after a cut thereby increasing regeneration without further reducing the herd in 2F and 2 G to convert those forests with poor forest health to forests with good forest health and higher deer densities. Jakebird is right, 20acres/yr will guarantee failed regeneration. But,100 acres/ yr. with liming and fertilizer will produce the desired results if combined with proper forest management which includes TSI cuts. With the herd being managed at that low percentage of the CC, then obviously instituting those practices should allow the herd to increase without additionally impacting the forest. They could spend some money and offset the deer factor, or just keep killing deer. Once again you've proven my point of it all boiling down to dollars and cents. The REAL mission of the DCNR.
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Post by crazyhorservn on Jul 17, 2008 22:11:15 GMT -4
Besides those common side effects I've also noticed empty fuel cans as well as trash such as soda cans and lunch wrappings. I guess it's what makes for improved habitat.
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Post by jakebird on Jul 17, 2008 22:12:37 GMT -4
Of couse they did. They'll do their best to silence him, God forbid anyone go against the establishment and challenge their agenda.
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Post by dougell on Jul 18, 2008 8:14:59 GMT -4
LB.the district forester and other foresters that have a lifetime of experience dealing with these issues have no idea what they're talking about.Do you even think before you type?
Crazyhorse,a farmer harvests his crops every year.A foreter makes about one harvest a century.Big difference there.The practicality of treating a filed with lime and fertilizer is also much different than treating steep,rocky ridges.
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Post by dougell on Jul 18, 2008 8:16:44 GMT -4
You guys are something else.You complain that more trees need to be cut and then you complain when they do just that.
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Post by crazyhorservn on Jul 18, 2008 9:54:26 GMT -4
Doug, I thought you sold insurance. I had no idea you had professional training in forestry. Oh yes, I forgot you attended the same intellectual university that your counterpart Jim Slinsky attended. The University of Someone's Else's Opinion & Influence.
The fact remains that in Pennsylvania foresters and timber companies do not treat the land or invest in it. Regardless of how often they harvest the crop of trees it certainly would be beneficial to invest in the next crop. Out west when a clear cut is performed they will replant seedlings with whatever they want for the next harvest. That harvest may not be for 20, 30, 50 or more years depending upon the species of tree. In Pennsylvania our foresters and timber companies simply TAKE. They give nothing back.
As for steep slopes, well in the Idaho mountains which have some terrible steep slopes they manage to harvest timber. Perhaps Pennsylvania foresters and timber men should subscribe to Idaho's methods. Pennsylvania would surely benefit.
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Post by dougell on Jul 18, 2008 10:12:52 GMT -4
Wow,You,BT,Frank,Guru,Jake,Tom and a host of other PGC haters also seem to think every the PGC and DCNR are doing evrything wrong.Didn't realize all you guys were foresters and biologists either.The difference between me and you is that you dream up conspiracies about everything.I go directly to the people doing the research and learn from them.It certainly doesn't make me an expert but it makes my understaning of the situation light years ahead of your silly conspiracy theories.
Do they also spread lime and fertizer over those steep slopes like you suggest?I remenber a steep slope being timbered in Sinnemahoning in 2001.It was so steep that they hauled the loggs away with a helicopter.Do you think that would be economically feasible today considering the high cost of fuel and the low value of the timber?
There is no need to replant around here.We get regneration as long as the deer don't eat it,as evidenced by the hundreds and hundreds of exclosures.
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Post by beenthere on Jul 18, 2008 10:28:07 GMT -4
The foresters of the past not only took the logs, their timbering actives and the forest fires that followed resulted in the loss of millions of tops of topsoil and the nutrients that built up over thousands of years. Now foresters expect to harvest the same crop without replacing the nutrients that were lost.
If foresters can harvest the trees on the steep slopes ,they can get hydro seeding equipment in the same areas to apply lime and fertilizer, but they simply don't want to spend the money.
I observed a cut on Earth Conservancy Land in Luzerne county where they high graded the cut ,left all the junk tees and didn't even re-grade and seed their skid trails,even though it was in their contract..
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Post by dougell on Jul 18, 2008 10:51:45 GMT -4
I see examples of poor forestry practices every day but it isn't from DCNR and the PGC.AS you know,about 80% of Pa is privately owned and no one can force these landowners to timber their trees in more sustainable fashion.Remember that forest certification that you all hate so much,it ensures that DCNR harvests the timber in a sustainable manner.
there's about 1000 acres being cut right accross from my house.The timber rights were sold about 20 years and now are owned by a big timber company.They own everything 14 inches or bigger at the stump.The contract is up in the year 2011.What do you think the outcome will be on that 1000 acres?It ain't pretty.In any event,what would any of you like the PGC or DCNR to do about it?
You people keep yapping about fertilizer and lime and have zero to data to back up your claims about it increasing the carrying capacity.The forests are constantly being fertilized by decaying leaves,logs,tree tops and other vegetation.Sure,we have areas with poor shallow soils but unless top soil is brought in,not much else can be done.To see and understand the real fact,all you have to do is visit the hundreds of exclosures.The regeneration is just fine and no lime or fertizer treatments have been done.the only thing that's been done is the deer have been kept out.You can jump up and down all you want and demand more lime but that isn't the problem.Once again,please explain why the regenetration is just fine behind these fences.
Come up here and show me one skid trail or log landing that's on state land that hasn't been re-seeded witha mixture beneficial to wildlife.while you're at it,show me one,just one high graded cut on state land that's been done in the past 20 years.You guys have no idea what you're talking about.The amount of science and the amount amount of regulations that goes intop each cut on public property is mind boggling.
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Post by Twowithone on Jul 18, 2008 10:56:09 GMT -4
I remenber a steep slope being timbered in Sinnemahoning in 2001.It was so steep that they hauled the loggs away with a helicopter.Do you think that would be economically feasible today considering the high cost of fuel and the low value of the timber? Maybe these foresters and loggers should watch the Discovery channel show Ax Men and they,ll see what steep terrain is and how they get their logs out of steep terrains.
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Post by dougell on Jul 18, 2008 11:03:42 GMT -4
Hmm,the last time I watched,they were all talking about shutting down because the price of the timber was falling.I guess sometimes it isn't cost effective running that kind of equiptment.
What kind of machinery do those guys use to spread lime and fertilizer with after they clearcut those slopes?
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Post by cmreed on Jul 18, 2008 11:16:19 GMT -4
I think it all comes down to one thing. Liming after a cut would deffinetly help and I think we could all agree on that. Will it ever happen probably not just because of cost and fesabilty. The only thing it will nessicarily do is speed up the growth. We logging our 60 acres off about 11 years ago and it was a select cut and the regeneration that came back is great our biggest problem now is that there are no deer around to enjoy it.
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Post by Twowithone on Jul 18, 2008 11:17:51 GMT -4
What kind of machinery do those guys use to spread lime and fertilizer with after they clearcut those slopes?
Thats in the upcoming episodes. Another factor out in Washington state was the weather coming in. dougell dont know of the lower timber prices but there is still a lot of people living in mobile homes after hurricane Katrina.
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Post by beenthere on Jul 18, 2008 12:00:48 GMT -4
If that is true ,than the obvious answer is to fence every cut because reducing the herd in 2G and 2F did not create the healthy forest you desire and it never will unless we eliminate virtually all of the deer in areas with poor forest health.
Therefore, I suggest you tell all your DCNR and PGC contacts and you representatives, that you support unlimited antlerless tags in 2F and 2G.
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