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Post by tbass on Apr 6, 2009 20:55:26 GMT -4
How does overall casing length effect accuracy? Does allowing it to vary +- .003 or .005" matter?
How about mixing brass brands?
or nickel and brass mixed?
I'm talking about 500yr deer shooting, not 1000yd woodchucks.
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Post by paheritage on Apr 7, 2009 9:55:27 GMT -4
I length all my cases to the same length + or - .003 isn't that big a deal , I think. I use all the same brass and don't mix types. I size Over ALL Length to fit my gun You want to try to load every bullet exactly the same . This will improve accuracy
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Post by frankinthelaurels on Apr 7, 2009 13:05:13 GMT -4
THE only thing that competition shooting and hunting rifles have in common is that they go BANG !!! I'll write lots more after work today......where to start on this one...MMmmmmm...the rifles, Z-28's are fast but they are no match for a pro-stock...the rifles have the same basic parts but they are vastly different, vastly!! The barrels, triggers, stocks, scopes, actions, tolerances do not compare...the reloading for the most part is done with all hand tools.. the chambering done in factory rifles is terrible at best...the neck tolerances are .006-007 perside and in my benchrest rifles, less than 1/2 a thousandth combined.. we are talking about shooting each individual chamber out of the heart at 500 yards...most of what you will see shoots 1 inch to 1 1/2 groups at 500, wind causes most of the problems... every once in awhile a sub 1 inch group shows up...with the winds at this range 2 inch groups on certain days are common..sometimes even bigger...someone just set the record at .90 at 500 yards..the factory classes are amazing also, considering what your dealing with... www.mifflincosportsmens.com click on groundhog match and read the rules...theres also some picture on there somewhere..you need to come by, it's not far from you.... there's so much to talk about... EVERYTHING MATTERS... EVERYTHING...you'll be amazed at what some guys do...
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Post by mrlongbeard on Apr 7, 2009 16:12:53 GMT -4
the lenght does have an effect as does different brass. just about everything you change when reloading effects the accuracy of the shot
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Post by dougell on Apr 7, 2009 17:40:39 GMT -4
Frank is correct but for hunting accuracy,just try to keep everything consitant and keep good records once you find a load that works for you.I won't keep a rifle that won't shoot an inch at a hundred yards but anything better,won't do more any good in the woods.
I use the same brass,usually winchester and I keep it all trimmed to the same length.I trim new brass and debur the flashholes.I don't bother with turning the necks.
When resizing,I use a full length die and back it out about a quarter turn.This should just size the neck.I then chamber it and then adjust the die down until there's a slight tension in the bolt.I'm just trying to size neck without bumping the shoulder back.
I'll then try some different powders working up until the groups widen or I see pressure sign.You should do this with several different powders.
I then do the same with different bullets.I don't try alot of different bullets.I generally just use the ones I have confidence in.Buy yourself a stoney point oal gauge.I seat my bullets about .50 off the lands to start with and move them closer to see where the sweet spot is.I start out and move closer to the lands so I can watch for signs of pressure building up.
This is what I do and it works for me but I'm just a hunter and a casual shooter.It allows me to have fun,shoot what works and shoot alot more often.Guys like Frank know how to get the best performance out of equiptment that's probably alot better than mine.
One last thing.All the reloading tips in the world are useless if you have a sloppy trigger and a crappy scope.Go big on both of them and you'll see a huge jump in performance,especially when shooting offhand.
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Post by tbass on Apr 7, 2009 18:06:52 GMT -4
I shoot a simple Winchester 670A 30-06 that has seen at least 1000 rounds in its life time. I know its no bench rest gun, nor can I afford to buy one. I am simply looking for the best accuracy my rifle is capable of. So far we have rough tuned it to 1.3" groups at 100 yards. We still have not worked out toward the lands or closed the gap in poser charge. Right now we are loading 6 shells with the listed high, low and middle charges.
On a calm day with a good rest I can put the Winchester Supreme BST's in at about an inch(center to center) at 100 so I am trying to save money and get at least that good of accuracy from hand loads. $34 a box is robbery in my eyes. Not as bad as nearly $90 a box for my buddy's Weatherby though.
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Post by frankinthelaurels on Apr 7, 2009 18:58:50 GMT -4
If I had to pick one thing that helps FACTORY rifles that have for the most part lots of slop in the chambers compared to benchrest and 1000 yard rigs it would be a addition of a straight line bullet seater...WILSON makes one for around $40.00...I use them in my sloppy hunting rifles and all of them have benefitted group wise from their use... ALSO I have found that the slowest powders don't always give you the best groups..all of my magums that I load for make lots of velocity with all of the slow poke powders but I've found that the best accuracy for the most part in my rifles and lots of them that I load for my friends occurs with a tad quicker powder..AS I've said many time..if I could only have one powder from 6mm to .338 mag it would be H-4350...for whatever reason it always seems to shoot best for me... also, but I would reccomend it for deer season or anything other than a bolt action.. size only half the neck..let the case be expander the the dimensions of the chamber..you'll be stunned at what taper you'll see in the neck..it'll look like another should, some are that bad... KEEP in mind for hunting, you don't need a quarter inch group.. 3 inches is more that enough to hit that basketball sized target... just about anything you put together will do that in modern bolts....BEFORE I'd pay some of the rediculous prices I see at GANDER mt for loaded ammo, I'd sell the rifle!! $50- 75 a box for some with premium bullet, craziness!!!
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Post by mrlongbeard on Apr 7, 2009 19:12:06 GMT -4
one of the best way to get accuracy from your is to get a good trigger or have the one in your gun worked on. if the trigger has a heavy pull this is going to make grouping hard no matter what loads you work out. i almost died when i saw the price of my 300 ultra mag loads, $68.00 wow.
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Post by tbass on Apr 7, 2009 19:48:10 GMT -4
But I have often come across 300-400 yard shots and a 2 or 3" groups at 100 won't work at that range very well. At least not well enough for me to risk a wounded animal. We have had good luck so far with IMR4350, H-Varget, and Win760 (or was it 670). My trigger is very light. Possibly too light to be honest. Its fairly crisp though.
Eventually I will buy a new rifle but I haven't been able to settle on getting a used A-bolt or the new X-bolt. I want a BOSS on it though which seems to be the hold up right now.
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Post by dougell on Apr 8, 2009 9:14:31 GMT -4
I've owned several A-bolts over the years and wouldn't have one with a boss.I shot a guy's .270 once with a boss and it just about blew my eardrums out.So far,I've owned a 30-06,300 wsm,.308,7mm-08 and .223 in either composite stalkers or stainless stalkers.They all shot great except of the 7mm-08.I just just got a lemon with that one.One nice thing about the brownings in that the triggers are adjustable down to around 3-3.25lbs.if you want to go lighter,you can pick up a timney trigger spring kit for about 13 bucks.i liked the brownings but I sold all of them off except the .223 and bought a couple Kimber Montannas.
Without a very solid rest,very accurate rifle and alot of long range practice,400 yards is way too far in most cases.Even if the gun can do it,most people can't do it consistantly.
If you want a nice accurate rifle that won't break the bank,check out a Tikka t3.I've also owned sebveral of them and they shot better than any factory rifle I've ever owned.They also come with a very nice trigger.
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Post by frankinthelaurels on Apr 8, 2009 10:45:35 GMT -4
TBASS... I know this is hard to believe but just because a rifle shoots a 3 inch group at 100 yards that doesn't translate into 6 at 200, 9 at 300, 12 at 400 and 15 at 500...that's why you must get to a range and actually shoot the bullets out of your rifles.. I've seen plenty of everything shoot at the groundhog matches, 200,300 and 500 yards..both factory and as exotic as they come... some bullets for a variety of reasons don't stabilize until they've traveled some distances, maybe they need a drop in velocity..and there's no way to tell which ones will do what until you shoot them on paper.. an interesting cartridge is a 6.5/284, I've seen plenty of them shoot and for various reasons some bullets won't shoot small groups at 200 or 300 yards, say inch and half, but they shoot the same group at 500 yards and believe me an inch and a half group at 500 ain't to shabby...all of you guys are right, long range shooting at any animal should not be done unless you know what your doing and what your rifle is doing without question, wounding any animal is what too much to pay for you not doing your rangework.. shots at 300, 400 or 500 yards are really simple with a good rest and knowledge of what your rifle and components are doing out there..reading the wind is not easy but the more time you spend on the range the better you'll become. Spending one Sunday or two a year will not git-er-done as they say. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE... there's no substitute for it... I have friends who side hill up north from one side of the Kettle Creek Valley to the other, that 700-1200 yards..they think nothing of shooting those distances at game, at they hit what they are shooting at and have the videos to prove it, that's beyond what I'm comfortable at but they do it without any problem... To each his own, accurate shooting comes down to equipment, practice, human skills, practice, practice and more practice... the comment about triggers at 3.25 pounds made me laugh a little, my one benchrester is set at 1.5 ounces!!! I keep most of my hunting rifles around 2.5 pounds.. I also have 3 of those Stainless A-Bolts, in 7mm mag, 300 mag and .338 mag, they shoot outstanding, all of them are around an inch at 100 yards...YOU"VE got to spend time at the range, then out to a strip cut to shoot off trees, the ground... backpacks etc.. YOU MUST PRACTICE even to check various reloading components..
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Post by tbass on Apr 8, 2009 13:07:05 GMT -4
I won't waste my time over 100 yards if I cant get better than an inch and a half or 2" at 100. If its 3 at 100 I don't see how it can be anywhere near acceptable at beyond 200, but I am no expert. Not to mention the psychology of shooting a poor group up close affecting me at longer ranges. Once I'm happy at 100, I'll switch to 200 and from there I have access to some property where I can shoot out to 650 if I really wanted to. I shoot every Sunday afternoon. My schedule is coffee, check trail cams, lunch, shooting.
I've heard different things about triggers. The two things I hear most are "crisp" and "two pounds". I know this falls in the "what works for you" category though.
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Post by dougell on Apr 8, 2009 15:25:50 GMT -4
Frank is correct about some bullets not stabilizing until they get way past 100 yards.
3.25 lbs is not a light trigger pull but it can easily be adjusted down to 2.5-2lbs with the timney trigger springs.l
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Post by tbass on Apr 8, 2009 17:24:49 GMT -4
A lot of this I just can't wrap my mind around because it doesn't make a lot of sense. Not saying its wrong, its just not in my view of logic. Not everything is as it seems though. I know that of course. Once its dialed in at 100, should it be alright beyond for certain?
We are settled on Combined Technology in 150 and 168gr .308 for our bullets. We have narrowed our powders to IMR 4350, H-Varget, and Win760.
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Post by dougell on Apr 8, 2009 17:40:07 GMT -4
nope,you have to shoot at longer distances to see how it performs.You're also correct in that alot of this defies logic.Some of it,you just have to see to believe.
I'm not a real big fan of ballistic tips used at high velocities.I used 165 gr ballsitic tips in front of 64 gr of H4350 in my 300 wsm one year and had terrible results.They shot great but performed terrible on game.Interestingly,the same bullets always worked great out of a .308.It's amazing how velociy can impact performance.
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