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Post by tbass on Jun 15, 2009 18:59:49 GMT -4
here is the link to the folder since even downsized the pics are 300KB+ each. s556.photobucket.com/albums/ss3/habitatsonichellcom/Pennfield/One side of the road had some regen but the other had a lot. Here is why the one side had a bunch. Some heavy browsing on the few oaks in the exclosure. There was signs of deer inside the exclosure and the maple was starting to outnumber the oaks. Here is another exclosure. You can see the difference inside to outside. Doug mentioned that he thought it was burned off after being cut. You could see the deer eating through the fence. Anywhere a tree got within inches of the fence it was browsed off. All in all the habitiat was crap where he showed me except the fire treated exclosure and a ridge top. At least now I know some one who has worse habitat than I do in my 4D Hunting area.
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Post by dougell on Jun 16, 2009 14:57:28 GMT -4
All the pictures were in Moshannon state forest.This area once had a huge deer density but as of 2005,it averaged about 13-16 dpsm.Much of the habitat is so bad,very few deer call it home.
The first exclosure we looked at was a shelterwood cut.The oak was doing fine a few years ago but every seedling we found over a foot tall was completely browsed,EVERYONE.This exclosure has a few deer in it and it proves that even at very low deer densities,the deer can single handedly alter the compostion of the forest.Interestingly,the deer hardly touched the abundant red maple.Deer are picky eaters and they devour the most preferred foods first.Oak is much more preferred than maple,even though they do browse on maple.
We also looked at some areas that were not cut but the understory has filled in very nice under a mature canopy now that the deer herd has been reduced.
We also looked at some unfenced timber sales that were also doing excellent now that the deer herd has been reduced.The plan is working in this area but it won't be fixed over night.
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Post by guru on Jun 17, 2009 10:29:15 GMT -4
The deer arent "single handedly" altering the composition of the forest any more than the humans did on the other side, by fencing the area and creating a 100% unnatural environment with ZERO deer for years.Would the fenced side benefit deer more? No question. But then so would all the money Ive spent in my life benefit me if I hadnt spent it and had it in a nice big pile right now. Course I couldnt have lived and functioned without food, clothing shelter avehicle etc. etc. So it is with the deer. We cannot have a thick untouched shrub layer in mature forest if we want to have deer. The only way that regeneration is occurring anywhere currently in Pa or probably for that matter anywhere in the country widescale, at that level is where there are not 25dpsm, not 10, but ZERO dpsm. So you can have your excessive amounts of hobble bush & trillium by ridding the world of the "woods wreckers" or we can reasonable numbers of deer and reasonable amounts of biodiversity. Can't have both extreme biodiversity and normal reasonable deer numbers.
Mature woods are what they are, they simply arent going to carry the vegetation diversity etc. that broken habitat or early successional will. It is what it is.Perhaps next we should fence more and larger areas for decades, fertilize and lime them, maybe even hang some speakers around the enclosure to play some classical music to the vegetation to help with the "harmony" aspect of their growth, then all take joy in having some of the thickest areas of mature forest in the world, and sit around and stare at them instead of deer hunting all season?? lmao. ;D The fact those enclosures have ZERO deer impact makes them utterly useless. I think that if the deer herd were any consideration at all, that an enclosure shouldve been erected one square mile in size on mature timber, allowed habitat to become healthy. Insert 20 dpsm into that enclosure, then monitor it for 10 years or so. The result would be a mature forest natural forest ecosystem that was not devastated by "too many deer" and would show us how the "big woods" should look. Now why thats not being done Doug?? Because that forest would look exactly like most of it does right now. Agree? Disagree?
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Post by crazyhorservn on Jun 17, 2009 12:28:52 GMT -4
Got any pictures of "Treasure lake?" At 50+deer per square mile it must be a barren wasteland.
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Post by dougell on Jun 17, 2009 12:35:38 GMT -4
The deer arent "single handedly" altering the composition of the forest any more than the humans did on the other side, by fencing the area and creating a 100% unnatural environment with ZERO deer for years.Would the fenced side benefit deer more? No question. But then so would all the money Ive spent in my life benefit me if I hadnt spent it and had it in a nice big pile right now. Course I couldnt have lived and functioned without food, clothing shelter avehicle etc. etc. So it is with the deer. We cannot have a thick untouched shrub layer in mature forest if we want to have deer. The only way that regeneration is occurring anywhere currently in Pa or probably for that matter anywhere in the country widescale, at that level is where there are not 25dpsm, not 10, but ZERO dpsm. So you can have your excessive amounts of hobble bush & trillium by ridding the world of the "woods wreckers" or we can reasonable numbers of deer and reasonable amounts of biodiversity. Can't have both extreme biodiversity and normal reasonable deer numbers.
Mature woods are what they are, they simply arent going to carry the vegetation diversity etc. that broken habitat or early successional will. It is what it is.Perhaps next we should fence more and larger areas for decades, fertilize and lime them, maybe even hang some speakers around the enclosure to play some classical music to the vegetation to help with the "harmony" aspect of their growth, then all take joy in having some of the thickest areas of mature forest in the world, and sit around and stare at them instead of deer hunting all season?? lmao. ;D The fact those enclosures have ZERO deer impact makes them utterly useless. I think that if the deer herd were any consideration at all, that an enclosure shouldve been erected one square mile in size on mature timber, allowed habitat to become healthy. Insert 20 dpsm into that enclosure, then monitor it for 10 years or so. The result would be a mature forest natural forest ecosystem that was not devastated by "too many deer" and would show us how the "big woods" should look. Now why thats not being done Doug?? Because that forest would look exactly like most of it does right now. Agree? Disagree? Guru,if you look at first page of pictures,there's multiple pictures of oaks that are being totaly browse.Deer eat the oaks first because they're most preferred so they are single handedly altering the ecosystem.By the way,those browsed oaks are in an exclosure.Almost every exclosure I've ever been in has some deer in them.therefore,it isn't 100% unnnatural.It just further proves my point that in poor habitat,it takes very few deer to continue to have an impact.Three years ago,that exclosure was loaded with ak.Now,very few remain.
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Post by dougell on Jun 17, 2009 12:36:27 GMT -4
Got any pictures of "Treasure lake?" At 50+deer per square mile it must be a barren wasteland. Yep,I just don't knwo how to post them.In fact,I don't think I can post them from my computer at work.
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Post by guru on Jun 17, 2009 12:46:17 GMT -4
Doug regardless of wether a deer snuck in or not, the exclosures are designed to have zero deer.
And if deer had entered the exclosure and arent allowing oak regeneration inside with even extreme low dd, which would be far lower than the density outside, even though it too is low, that shows things other than deer are effecting regeneration and it also illustrates what most of us already know; mature/pole timber forests arent the best area to expect much oak seedling regeneration in the first place.
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Post by dougell on Jun 17, 2009 13:56:55 GMT -4
Holy crap Guru,you're missing the whole point.It really doesn't matter what what dd the exclosure is supposed to have.This isn't a demonstation exclosure and it's not pole timber either.This is a shelterwood cut,designed to get oak regeneration,that was fenced in.For those who do not know what a sheltewood cut is,here's the short version.Oak is moderately shade tolerant and it doesn''t grow as fast as some competeing species such as various maples.Therefore,it's important to get some advanced regeneration occuring,prior to cutting the majaority of the overstory.What they did was open up the canopy just enough to let sufficent light in to get the acorns to germinate.This was working extremely well as the forest floor was covered with small oak seedling three years ago.Unfortunately some deer are usually trapped inside the fence when it's erected and some get in on their own.Now most of the oak is gone because the deer at it all.Deer are picky eaters and eat their preferred food first.Even though there'sa ton of maple in that exclosure,the few deer singled the oak and ravaged it,changing the composition forever.There wasn't a single oak seedling that hadn't been browsed by the few deer present in a large exclosure.If you look at the photos,you can see how bad they are hedged which means they had been repeatedly browsed.It's deer damage Guru and nothing else.
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Post by guru on Jun 17, 2009 20:13:47 GMT -4
Sorry mo-frare, but I didnt see the pic labeled as such (shelterwood cut) and the background in some of those pics appeared to be POLE TIMBER. Also cannot tell what the deal is in the others as they are straight down and of the ground. I did notice a small bit of an opening on a couple and some sunlight penetrating etc, but the pic isnt a very wide angle. and as such, Kinda hard to figure what I was looking at without being told beforehand.
"Holy crap Guru,you're missing the whole point.It really doesn't matter what what dd the exclosure is supposed to have.This isn't a demonstation exclosure "
But you ARE using it for demonstration purposes right now. And not sure what that has to do with anything, as it was STILL constructed to keep deer OUT.
How large is the area inside the exclosure Doug?
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Post by tbass on Jun 17, 2009 20:26:51 GMT -4
Yeah, I grabbed my case and camera without realizing I left my regular lens on the work bench. All I had was my telephoto lens. I'm not sure which ones you are referring to as straight at the ground, so I can't clarify. It may be the different from one side of the road to the other. As you can see at the top of the thread there is a ton of regen but also a ton of acorns on the ground. The other side of the road had some regen but not as much and NO acorns. I was trying to show that regen comes from mature mast bearing trees more than by lack of deer. When I say "the other side fo the road" I mean 100-150 feet apart.
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Post by guru on Jun 17, 2009 20:38:37 GMT -4
No, no problem with your pics tbass. Just needed the clarification on what we are seeing as far as the "big picture" is all. I knew I was not looking at a clearcut, yet did see a small opening I just assumed had been cleared just a bit along the fence or something. Thanks for posting.
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Post by Twowithone on Jun 17, 2009 20:43:57 GMT -4
tbass if those bracken ferns are like that in a lot of places what u need there is a controlled burn.
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Post by mrlongbeard on Jun 17, 2009 21:32:22 GMT -4
i can see the difference in the pics . they are the same thing i saw twenty years ago when penn state and the u.s. forest service did it . down here we don't have that problem any more yet the p.g.c still continues to slaughter the deer?
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Post by dougell on Jun 18, 2009 9:09:45 GMT -4
Sorry mo-frare, but I didnt see the pic labeled as such (shelterwood cut) and the background in some of those pics appeared to be POLE TIMBER. Also cannot tell what the deal is in the others as they are straight down and of the ground. I did notice a small bit of an opening on a couple and some sunlight penetrating etc, but the pic isnt a very wide angle. and as such, Kinda hard to figure what I was looking at without being told beforehand. "Holy crap Guru,you're missing the whole point.It really doesn't matter what what dd the exclosure is supposed to have.This isn't a demonstation exclosure " But you ARE using it for demonstration purposes right now. And not sure what that has to do with anything, as it was STILL constructed to keep deer OUT. How large is the area inside the exclosure Doug? There's two points about it being an exclosure.One,most exclosures do have deer in them so the argument about them being 100% unnatutal is not true.Second,even though there are a few deer in there,it's safe to say the exclosure has a very low deer density.Despite that,it perfectly illustrates how deer single out the most preferred browse species and alter the forest composition. I'll have to to call and find out how big that exclosure is.I'll try to get an answer by the end of the day but it depends on if the district forester is away.It's a pretty big exclosure but it's no bigger than 70 acres. None of that first page of pictures is a closed canopy.It's a shelterwood cut and plenty of light is hitting the forest floor. The second page is an area on a high ridgetop where the deer spend no time during the winter because they get pushed into the lower elevations.Some of those pictures are a shelterwood cut and some is just new regeneration because the herd has been cut back to around 10 owdpsm.Those pictures are examples of unfenced timber sales.
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Post by dougell on Jun 18, 2009 9:14:05 GMT -4
Yeah, I grabbed my case and camera without realizing I left my regular lens on the work bench. All I had was my telephoto lens. I'm not sure which ones you are referring to as straight at the ground, so I can't clarify. It may be the different from one side of the road to the other. As you can see at the top of the thread there is a ton of regen but also a ton of acorns on the ground. The other side of the road had some regen but not as much and NO acorns. I was trying to show that regen comes from mature mast bearing trees more than by lack of deer. When I say "the other side fo the road" I mean 100-150 feet apart. Tony,of course oak regeneration comes from mast bearing trees.That's no secret.The reason that area is regenerationg is because it's on a high ridgetop that has no deer during the winter.We'll have to go back up there again because I didn't see any areas that had good regeneration on one side of the road and none on the other.By the way,where we parked above Parker dam and walked through that gate,all that new oak regeneration was do to fewer deer.That area wasn't cut until we walked to the top of that road.ten years ago,you could see for hundreds of yards through those woods and now there's a good mid-level understory taking over.
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