Post by zimmerstutzen on Oct 11, 2007 16:29:20 GMT -4
On some of the forums, there has been a number of posts concerning loads for a gun, or complaints that some loads don't work for folks. There is a common saying that each gun is different. That is so very true. Variations can occur, not just in loads, but age of powder, whether it has been subjected to moisture, the type of bullet or patch. One of the other differences is due to the manufacturing process. As scientifically precise as we like to think we are, or can be, there are logical reasons for differences between guns. Guns of the same model from the same production line can vary. There may well be a very logical reason why your buddy's pet load won't hit a flock of barns in your gun, even if it is the same model.
In the manufacturing process, especially with engineer designed items, there are permissible standard deviations in production runs. For instance, despite our best efforts, each part will have a certain uniqueness in dimensions once we get down to thousandths and ten-thousandths of an inch. This can be due to cutters that dull a bit more with each successive part, machine spindles that slowly wear, even minor variations in the steel used can result in one part having an ever so slightly different measurement.
In the course of things, manufacturers establish what quality control limits they will place on the differences they permit from piece to piece in a production run. This is not just a factor of inspection but also machine maintenance and cutter replacement or sharpening.
As I understand it, the ideal bore for 50 cal sabots and conicals is .504 If you carefully examine 15 guns from the same production run, you will find that each bore varies slightly by a few ten thousandths of an inch, or even by as much as a hundredth of an inch. The slight dimension difference from barrel to barrel in bore diameter is also found in rifling width and depth. In lines are much more suseptible to variances and tolerances than round ball barrels. Now keep in mind that some manufacturers have tighter quality controls, but in the end, they are muzzleloaders that do not require the same exact precision as modern smokeless cartridge guns. As we narrow down from rough accuracy and get closer to fine accuracy, each barrel handles loads, powders and bullets with a difference. What is a tack driver load for one gun, may not work satisfactorily in the next gun off the same production line. Broached rifling varies as the broaches dull with each barrel cut.
In the early days of the trapdoor springfields, govt inspectors wer given instructions as to what standard deviations were permissible. The 45-70 bores were permitted to vary as much as from .455 to .467. Shooting a lead .457 bullet in a permissible inspection passing but oversize .467 barrel would give worse accuracy than a smooth bore slug. By the same example if one in-line muzzle loader barrel is .497 it won't shoot the same loads and bullets with the same accuracy as an identical gun with a .509 bore. The bullets won't load with the same ease, etc.
We expect that better companies will have overall better controls and tighter standard permissible deviations, but that isn't always the case. In WW2, the Japs were turning out millions of crudely manufactured Arisaka rifles. Coarse turning lathe marks were all over them. many of the stocks were barely sanded to remove splinters before varnishing. But the chromium bores were expected to be within three ten-thousanths of an inch of one another. They concentrated on what made the guns shooters, even if the guns were outwardly ugly as sin.
The point is that regardless of how crude something may look, it may have the right stuff where it counts.
Brand preference is kind of like the Ford/Chevy/Dodge thing. Some are better in different ways. If you buy a VW bug, don't expect the same ride and comfort as a rolls royce. Hoever both will get you there. In rifles, a glassy smooth, prime walnut burl stock with fancy checkering is definitely not what makes the bullet hit the target. It is the lock and barrel. Whether CVA, Lyman, or Traditions barrels are generally as accurate as a TC or a Knight is a matter of quality control and where the individual company places it's emphasis.
Lastly, some guns are engineered for different types of shooting.
Most people realize the difference and purpose between a round ball barrel and a conical barrel. Many folks are also aware that conicals require shallow rifling and round balls require deep rifling. A gun that has a fast twist and deep rifling is simply misengineered to be inaccurate for deer hunting. (Such guns have been made for 25 yd off-hand target work with patched round balls and very, very light charges. They are ideal for that sole purpose.)
For a Hawken style flint rifle, I still think the old CVA Mountain rifle was the best production gun made. Certainly not as pretty in fit or finish as a TC, but the CVA larger flint locks were better and more reliable sparkers and the CVA rifling was better matched to traditional round ball shooting than the TC. After all, where does quality in a rifle count, How it looks hanging over the mantle?, or how the targets are punched down range?
In the manufacturing process, especially with engineer designed items, there are permissible standard deviations in production runs. For instance, despite our best efforts, each part will have a certain uniqueness in dimensions once we get down to thousandths and ten-thousandths of an inch. This can be due to cutters that dull a bit more with each successive part, machine spindles that slowly wear, even minor variations in the steel used can result in one part having an ever so slightly different measurement.
In the course of things, manufacturers establish what quality control limits they will place on the differences they permit from piece to piece in a production run. This is not just a factor of inspection but also machine maintenance and cutter replacement or sharpening.
As I understand it, the ideal bore for 50 cal sabots and conicals is .504 If you carefully examine 15 guns from the same production run, you will find that each bore varies slightly by a few ten thousandths of an inch, or even by as much as a hundredth of an inch. The slight dimension difference from barrel to barrel in bore diameter is also found in rifling width and depth. In lines are much more suseptible to variances and tolerances than round ball barrels. Now keep in mind that some manufacturers have tighter quality controls, but in the end, they are muzzleloaders that do not require the same exact precision as modern smokeless cartridge guns. As we narrow down from rough accuracy and get closer to fine accuracy, each barrel handles loads, powders and bullets with a difference. What is a tack driver load for one gun, may not work satisfactorily in the next gun off the same production line. Broached rifling varies as the broaches dull with each barrel cut.
In the early days of the trapdoor springfields, govt inspectors wer given instructions as to what standard deviations were permissible. The 45-70 bores were permitted to vary as much as from .455 to .467. Shooting a lead .457 bullet in a permissible inspection passing but oversize .467 barrel would give worse accuracy than a smooth bore slug. By the same example if one in-line muzzle loader barrel is .497 it won't shoot the same loads and bullets with the same accuracy as an identical gun with a .509 bore. The bullets won't load with the same ease, etc.
We expect that better companies will have overall better controls and tighter standard permissible deviations, but that isn't always the case. In WW2, the Japs were turning out millions of crudely manufactured Arisaka rifles. Coarse turning lathe marks were all over them. many of the stocks were barely sanded to remove splinters before varnishing. But the chromium bores were expected to be within three ten-thousanths of an inch of one another. They concentrated on what made the guns shooters, even if the guns were outwardly ugly as sin.
The point is that regardless of how crude something may look, it may have the right stuff where it counts.
Brand preference is kind of like the Ford/Chevy/Dodge thing. Some are better in different ways. If you buy a VW bug, don't expect the same ride and comfort as a rolls royce. Hoever both will get you there. In rifles, a glassy smooth, prime walnut burl stock with fancy checkering is definitely not what makes the bullet hit the target. It is the lock and barrel. Whether CVA, Lyman, or Traditions barrels are generally as accurate as a TC or a Knight is a matter of quality control and where the individual company places it's emphasis.
Lastly, some guns are engineered for different types of shooting.
Most people realize the difference and purpose between a round ball barrel and a conical barrel. Many folks are also aware that conicals require shallow rifling and round balls require deep rifling. A gun that has a fast twist and deep rifling is simply misengineered to be inaccurate for deer hunting. (Such guns have been made for 25 yd off-hand target work with patched round balls and very, very light charges. They are ideal for that sole purpose.)
For a Hawken style flint rifle, I still think the old CVA Mountain rifle was the best production gun made. Certainly not as pretty in fit or finish as a TC, but the CVA larger flint locks were better and more reliable sparkers and the CVA rifling was better matched to traditional round ball shooting than the TC. After all, where does quality in a rifle count, How it looks hanging over the mantle?, or how the targets are punched down range?