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Post by tbass on Feb 6, 2009 21:04:35 GMT -4
I found all sorts of information about crimping when you have a bullet with a cannelure. I also find information about seating without crimping and how it is only for a few calibers. I am planning to reload using Combined Technology 55gr BST in 22-250 and 150-180gr in 30-06. I also have nosler ballistic tips for 30 caliber to use in 30-06 and Hornady Vmax 55gr for use in 22-250. None of these have a cannelure.
I don't want to make the assumption I can neck size these and seat the bullets without a crimp. I am hoping to find a more concrete source instead of trial and error.
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Post by frankinthelaurels on Feb 7, 2009 6:45:56 GMT -4
The only real overall length that you need to worry about is will they fit into the magazine, everything else is pretty much a good guess on your part. All of the mannual have the MAX. overall length shown that will still fit into the gun magazine..I've always kept my rifle just under that number by a few thousanths, it really is trial and error, some loads will shoot best a littel shorter, some alittle longer. Once I pick a primer, usually Remington 9 1/2 magnums in all my rifles and usually H-4350 in my big rifles and 4064 in the little ones I begin to work with bullet seating depths... also, I use only straight line bullet seater in all my rifles, they work and are easily adjustable for bullet seating depth...there is no magic number here, trial and error is the only way to do it, load 3 bullets at one depth, 3 more at another etc...you soon tell which YOUR gun likes...I've found that with factory rifles, tolerances and barrels...for the most part they aren't that finicky...functioning in the action seems to be more of a problem than depths... my long range benchrest rifles are all kept .015 into the lands..but that's another story...
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Post by tbass on Feb 7, 2009 13:15:30 GMT -4
But my question was... do I neck size and simply seat and push the bullets to length without a crimp?
I used the OAL on Winchester supreme ballistic silvertip 22-250's for reference.
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Post by frankinthelaurels on Feb 9, 2009 8:32:46 GMT -4
CRIMP ?....Are you sure your not talking about neck tension ? First off, there must be some tension to hold the bullet... you can shoot it with minimal tension but you need a die that uses bushing and buy several until you find one that will just hold the bullet.. I personally only neck size one half of the neck and seast the base of the bullet to that point, in most factory rifles you won't be able to actually touch the rifling after a few hundred shots.. most are long throated and wear and tear will take care of the rest.. are you talking about roll crimping?? That's never needed with standard loads in bolt action rifles....there needs to be some squeeze or it won't hold it...
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Post by tbass on Feb 9, 2009 8:57:02 GMT -4
I have an RCBS 2 die set. Ont he box it came in it has this on the end.
F L DIE SET .22-250 REM P/N 10601 Group: A Use Shell Holder #03
I have the sizing/decapping die and the seat/crimp die. I have it backed off to a point where only the sized neck from the sizing die stage puts tension on the bullet to hold it. I was reading the papers that came with my die. It mentions crimping, roll crimping, and taper crimping. Its my understanding that taper crimps are mainly for pistol ammo.
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Post by frankinthelaurels on Feb 9, 2009 9:43:09 GMT -4
With standard reloading dies there is no way to increase or decrease the amount of squeeze.. they are not adjustable and believe me they are putting way way more tension than is truely needed.. you needed a Redding Bushing die to experiment with that... standard rifle dies squeeze to hold the bullet, they do not roll or taper crimp...those are caused by a special die needed by pistols..
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Post by cossack on Mar 30, 2009 19:10:05 GMT -4
"With standard reloading dies there is no way to increase or decrease the amount of squeeze."
Not so. You can seat the bullet (with or without connilures) then BACK OUT THE SEATING STREM so it doesn't touch the bullet, and set the seating die down (down) a bit at a time until you get a TAPER CRIMP ( just squeezes the neck). That's why seating dies are normally set out about a turn off the shelll holder to prevent such a crimp if you don't want it. However, if you full size, or even neck size the cases, you will normally not need to crimp a 22-250 or '06 (with 150 grn bullets) as the recoil isn't great enough to affect bullet seating. I normally apply a taper crimp to small, thin walled cases, like Hornet, just to make sure the neck tesnion is uniform.
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Post by frankinthelaurels on Apr 2, 2009 6:11:18 GMT -4
THE crimp or squeeze is not applied by the bullet seater in a standard rifle die set that I've ever seen...it only pushes the bullet down into the case... the sizing die squeezes it down to hold the bullet and the primer decapping pin opens it up slightly as it's pulled back up threw the neck after it knocks out the old primer..I've never had a seater die that ever touches the outside neck on any case...I applied moly to the outside of the neck to check last night and it was not touched by the bullet seater die in any of the rifle cartridges I tried, about 10..with my pistol dies, yes but not one rifle die touched..maybe the hornet is that way because of the S&W pistols that were chambered for it a long time ago, but I've never seen a rifle bullet seater die that touched or had anything to do with the squeeze... an even bigger problem occurs with the variations in neck wall thickness between the different companies..one case applies .002 squeeze and the thicker neck applies .005 or .007..I've seen some that were so tight that they've shaved some jacket material off the bullet.. get yourself some great redding bushing dies and a few different sizes of bushing and see what difference the amount of squeeze does on a target, you'll be amazed
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Post by wildwilly on Apr 2, 2009 20:50:22 GMT -4
Frank I don't know what brand of dies you have but most if not all standard seater dies can be adjusted to crimp screw the die down to touch the shell holder run an empty case see what the die does to it
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Post by frankinthelaurels on Apr 3, 2009 7:34:52 GMT -4
OK WILLY, I did... it doesn't do a single thing in my RCBS dies from the early 70's.. the only thing I can see is a shiny little edge where it's hitting seater channel, mine are not squeezing the neck at all, not even a thousandth... it's almost like when you look at some cases and you see the rifling a quarter of an inch down the side of the neck..you know it didn't go that far down the barrel or did it... Since those early days I've used only Redding Bushing dies, so that I can adjust the tension in order to see what it does to the groups and I use only straight line bullet seaters from Wilson or Belding and Mull, plus a few in my benchrest rifles that were cut with the same reamer that my chambers are cut with.... I've never even heard the word crimp screw ever used before.. are you sure your cases are not to long and running up in the seater channel Maybe this is something "new" that is built into the newer dies because I've never seen it or heard of it before... OH well, is there an explanation in the dies of how this crimp screw works and why you need to squeeze it even tighter than than full length sizer already does...??
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Post by dougell on Apr 3, 2009 9:16:03 GMT -4
In every set of dies I have,the directions are very clear.They all say to screw the setaing die all the way down until it touches the mouth of the case.Then,back the die up one turn to be sure you arent crimping the case.I've never tried to crimp anything except pistol ammo but it's always been my understanding that you can crimp with a standard RCBS die.I could be wrong.Perhaps,they just include one standard set of instructions with their dies.I have some redding dies as well.I'll have to see what those instructions say.
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Post by frankinthelaurels on Apr 3, 2009 12:20:22 GMT -4
I've heard of backin off the sizing die a quarter turn or so, so you don't or if you don't want the shoulder bumped back more than you'd like.. But with the seater dies maybe it's to avoid crushing the very end of the case mouth, especially if your not trimming them correctly.. We all know that some rifle and pistol caliber are certainly interchangeable and those dies would have the usual types of crimping caused by the bullet seater, 3 die sets.. such as .357's, 45-70's, .44 mags, .22 hornets, 44/40's etc.. but I've never heard of a two die bullet seater being able to crimp or squeeze the entire neck tighter than the sizing die and the expander on the decapping pin.... I've been looking for this crimping screw and haven't found any explanation for it, yet... I know that no straight line bullet seater that I have puts any squeeze on a seated bullet.. If you haven't tried them you should, you'll be surprised at how accurate they can make a hunting rifle..
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Post by dougell on Apr 3, 2009 15:38:02 GMT -4
Like I said,I've never tried to crimp rifle cases.I only load for bolt actions so i've never had the need.However,I do crimp my pistol loads.When I do this,I push the ram all the way down and then screw the die down until it touched the case mouth.At that point,I adjust the die down just a little more until I get the desired crimp.I honestly though the procedure was the same with rifle bullets.It's possible that we're all wrong and it's also possible that you may possibly be using more specialty dies that never have a need to crimp.
It was always my understanding that there was no need to crimp rounds for a bolt or single shot.On the other hand,you should crimp rounds that are going to be used in a semi or a lever action.I don't reload for either one of them so i'm just going by what I thought I read.
Yes,you can back off the sizing die so you don't bump the shoulder back.That's actually thE way I do it.
In my experience,the third die in a three die set is for opening the case mouth a hair on strait walled cases.
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Post by wildwilly on Apr 3, 2009 16:14:09 GMT -4
I did it last night just to make sure with a 4 or 5 yr RCBS 25-06 die I just did it now with a RCBS 1981 30-06 set and a redding .270 from the mid 80s all of them crimp I had to check because I don't crimp for my guns. Frank it does't squeeze the entire neck just crimps the end
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